Zachary: Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Stuck in the Middle podcast. My name is Zach and this is my long-awaited first ever interview. Today I will be interviewing Shaakira Nanabhay.
Welcome.
Thank you so much for doing this.
How are you?
Shaakira: It's a pleasure Zach. Always a pleasure for you.
Zachary: Ok!
We'll start off by saying, well, can you please tell the listeners who you are and a little bit about your family history?
Shaakira: Ok, so my name is Shaakira. My parents are both late. My dad's name was Kumal Nanabhay. So my dad came from a typical Indian family and then my mum came from what you would call a Malay family. So yeah, so that was the dynamic between my parents and if you can imagine so many years ago, that was incredibly difficult because in those days, especially if you came from an Indian family, you married an Indian girl.
Zachary: Yes. Yeah.
Shaakira: And you know the caste system was very important and that type of thing. So my dad took a lot of flack from his parents because they weren't accepting of my mother because she was Malay, so it was always seen as less than. You know, the person wasn't Muslim enough, so it was a big challenge for my father. But, you know, he was such a strong person and such a kind human being and, he loved my mother so, so much and so he did, He married her and you know, they built a life together. You know, despite, you know, his family being being against the whole idea. So that's a little bit of a background into my parents.
Zachary: Did your dad's family eventually accept it, or..?
Shaakira: You know, I think towards the end, I think they did, but it was so late and you know it meant that, you know, as kids myself and my brothers never really had a relationship with our cousins and our aunts and uncles and our grandparents from that side because you know, my dad was always having to stand up for my mother or, you know, they would go for meals and we'd hear these horrible stories of my dad, he would get up and go wash his hands, and then they would say ugly things to her or… so it was very hard, you know, I came much later. So there's a big age gap between myself and my brothers.
Zachary: Ok
Shaakira: But just hearing those stories and you know, not always having having that family connection to my dad because he just wasn't willing to put up with that. So yeah, I hope that answers that.
Zachary: Yeah, I mean, was your, if you don't mind me asking, was your your mum side, they were fine?
Shaakira: They were actually… they were amazing. So it's funny enough my, you know, my dad being from an Indian home, he didn't come from a very religious home, whereas my mother came from a very pious home. A very humble home. So yeah, very Muslim home, but very humble, very poor, but very welcoming. And my dad remembered actually going to visit my mum's parents in Mafikeng, where she was. And, my grandfather was so well learned, like he was such a well learned person. Islamically he was super well learned. I mean he passed away on 27th night, so you have an idea of, you know, Islam. And so falling, you know, passing away in such an auspicious night and, you know, it was just so incredible and they were just so kind and they didn't have a lot. But my granny, I mean, I always remember my dad saying he woke up on a Sunday morning and she had fresh koeksisters ready for him and I think that meeting with those people, my mum's family, really kind of changed my dad's outlook on life and what being a good Muslim was and what being a good person was because my dad wasn't necessarily the most religious guy. My dad was the kind of guy that would go for Friday prayers but he wouldn't read his five times namaz. He'd fast. We never had alcohol at home. You know, he wasn't this very, very strict person, but when it came to qualities, you know, my dad was just such an incredible person.
Zachary: I mean, you mentioned earlier about you and your brother growing up it's just you two?
Shaakira: No. So I've got three brothers.
Zachary: Oh wow. Ok.
Shaakira: I've got three brothers, so one is, unfortunately, he passed away like six months ago. Yeah, yeah, it was quite recent. And then I've got two other brothers. I've got one that lives in the Netherlands and one that lives in Johannesburg.
Zachary: Yeah, I mean, you mentioned them. Can you recount some experiences that you may think are unique about growing up in a mixed race world? It can be about school, for example.
Shaakira: It's difficult because it's it's even hard to say because as soon as you say mixed race people also assume then that you must have come from a coloured family, but then that requires that you then Christian. So then you don't want to say. Ohh yeah I'm that. But then you don't. Want to say well, I'm Indian because. You know, then you're denying your mother's side of the family.
Zachary: I mean, yeah.
Shaakira: So it's really, really hard. So you know, I would just say well I come from a Muslim family, my dad's Indian, my mum's Malay and that's it and that's who I am and people could like it or not. But I think, you know, I think experiences I remember with my brothers. I think difficult experiences, I think I remember, you know, I think with my oldest brother, cause he still grew up in that generation where it was, where marrying was still quite tricky. So I think, you know, when he met girls, Indian girls, that he necessarily wanted, you know, there was a particular girl that he wanted to marry and so my when my family went to propose, the answer was no, and you know so. You know the experience of my parents definitely spilled over into into my brothers, you know.
Zachary: Not so much you?
Shaakira: Not so much me because I think I came sort of from the generation where non white children were starting to go to model C schools.
Zachary: Yeah, yeah.
Shaakira: So we were like the first generation of when things were becoming slowly more acceptable. And then by the time I, you know, I was dating or, you know, looking to meet someone and whatever, things had slowly began to evolve, you know, so when I had met my husband, you know, his family were just like, oh! They just wanted to know was she married before? But they weren't, you know, it was just that I did come from a Muslim home and that kind of thing. And that I was a good person, etc., but they they weren't, they weren't interested that my parents, my dad was Indian, Malay
So my experiences were a bit different
Zachary: Yeah, so the race focus disappeared?
Shaakira: At that point, yeah, I mean my mother's experience was very difficult. I mean, her experience, you know, now that I look back later in my life, I mean, she had it hard right. My mother was a kind of woman. she you know, because of the tension and because of what happened. She almost looked for perfection in her life. So my mother was the woman that would blow dry her hair twice a week because having curly hair was unacceptable, it was seen as less than right? For me, now, I sometimes love wearing my hair curly, right? It's really cool.
Zachary: I love my curly hair.
Shaakira: So things like that. Learning to cook, you know, because Indian woman cooked very well. My mother, typically in what was the deemed good cooking. But it's amazing how she kind of took that on and you know, in line with the negative, she also met some amazing Indian woman. So in the communities where my parents lived in Benoni, she met some really nice women who taught her and who, you know, she learned from. And that type of thing, but yeah, it was hard. I mean, it was hard to raise her boys. It was hard. We also grew up in that, that apartheid era.
Zachary: Yeah, yeah.
Shaakira: Well, my brothers did so that was that was the challenge. But there were benefits.
Zachary: Yes, actually that's what I was gonna ask cause I feel like so far in my podcast I've really hit hard on the mixed race idea being negative. But let me ask some positive experiences for you. Specifically, like something that boosts you.
Shaakira: I think, you know, I think just the experience of my dad and just how much he stood up for what he believed in in life has taught me so much. It's just been such an incredible experience to have my dad. I mean, we had such a special relationship. When I see you and your mum, it reminds me so much of me and my dad, because we’d go on holiday together and we have this like we had such an amazing father, daughter relationship and at the end it was actually such a cool friendship.
Zachary: I like my friendship with my mom
Shaakira: So yeah, so.
Shaakira: That's, I I definitely think it's given me a good perspective into what being not a good Muslim is, but what a good person is and to stand up for what you believe in. So yeah, so definitely I think that was definitely one of the things that stood out for me and also I mean the positive impact my dad then made on my mother's side of the family because my dad had, you know, once, once him and my mum had established themselves, my dad did very well and then he was able to help my mom's side of the family. And I mean up till today when I see my cousins, the first thing they always tell me is, you know, your dad was incredible. Your parents were incredible when it was Eid, they made sure we had clothes; they made sure we did all these different things. So, you know, in hindsight, if my dad hadn't chosen that path, you know, maybe these children wouldn’t have had that opportunity. And so, yeah, and I think also just learning the humbleness, I think I wouldn't have had the opportunity to experience humbleness through my mother's side of the family because, you know, when I was little, maybe five or six, we would go to Mafikeng and it was, it was like, really poor, right? Like, I mean, we weren’t to a wealthy family. But when you go there, It's like next level poor right? And just seeing their warmth and their kindness and I think that's definitely qualities and values I've now taken into my adulthood.
Zachary: I mean, you say your your father comes from an Indian family.
Shaakira: That's correct.
Zachary: And your mother from a Malay family. So I mean the the Muslim is still both there on that side, they're both, but their cultures are different. How do you navigate those different cultures?
Shaakira: My dad’s side, you know, it was a little bit more formal and you kind of, you know, didn't do that kind of thing that my mother’s side would do.
Zachary: Yeah, yeah.
Shaakira: You experience both types of cuisine almost, because Malay people cook quite differently.
Zachary: Yep, yes.
Shaakira: So yeah, so those were all interesting experiences.
Zachary: So you enjoyed navigating?
Shaakira: Absolutely, I think you know, I think later in my life, you know, it changed. And I mean, I got to know my dad's sister, who was the last to pass, but I got to know her and understand her and that kind of thing. So that was that was really cool.
Zachary: I mean. When I think about my dad's side and my mom's side, I always believe I'm slightly closer to my mum's side. You know, I live with her. My dad passed away. I'm not really connected with that side, so I'd always say I'm closer to my mum's side and as you said, I think we have a good friendship, me and my mom. And you spoke about your friendship with your dad. Would you say you feel closer to your dad's side? I mean, that's quite a personal question.
Shaakira: Well, I was always closer to my dad from the time I was little. So we just had this connection, this bond, I don't know if it was because I was the only girl. But we just had this really cool father daughter vibe and so I think earlier on in my childhood, because my mother was very present and because we didn't really have a connection with my dad's side of the family because of their disapproval of my mother, I naturally was closer to my mother's side of the family and the cousins, etc., Because, you know, we were just, they liked us, they liked being with us. But then, when my mother passed, you know that whole idea of going for hadat, and that piece became a bit much. And by that time I was kind of in my teens. And so I didn't really have a connection with both. It was pretty much, you know, similar to you and your mom, you know people, didn't really worry about us anymore. You know, it was like, well, you know, and so it was pretty much my dad and myself and my brother at the time. We we lived together. And then my two other brothers that kind of they moved out and that kind of thing. But we were more a unit of three.
Zachary: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You said you were the last one so the tension was kind of gone. Not really, but sort of.
Shaakira: Yeah, definitely.
Zachary: Do you, were you ever like pressed to be with one side of your family, maybe at school or…?
Shaakira: No, not really. I mean, my mother never, ever said to us, you know, you can't go and visit your aunt or that kind of thing or, you know, you can't visit your dad's side of the family, there was never any pressure per say. I think from my dad's perspective. I mean, I think my mother did put pressure on him to go and visit her family, so I think, you know, we kind of always had to tag along and go and up to now, I mean, if my brother comes from the Netherlands and he's like, let's go to Lens to visit, it's like, my eyes roll and I'm like it's a whole day out of my life and you know, it was part of my life was kind of like, I'm happy to like, “hi, how are you? How's it going?” But it's not always easy for me because I, you know, I don't have those connections with those cousins, because we're in a different era, right?
Zachary: But uhm, like for example at school? No one believes me when I say. I’m this or that did. Were people very understanding at school, if they asked you or was that not a worry?
Shaakira: Yeah, I think it was really hard, I think it was much harder than your generation, I think you guys have it in terms of, I mean I think you have other challenges but I think people are generally more accepting now
Zachary: Yeah, definitely. Oh, yeah.
Shaakira: Than what they were like. People wanted to know what you are. Like are you Indian? What’s Malay? What’s coloured? Like, they wanted an answer. Like teachers wanted to know, like Madressa, like they wanted to know like why is your hair curly? Why are you so fair? Like you know? That was hard. That was hard to navigate.
Zachary: Then need a solid answer.
Shaakira: They needed a solid aswer. I mean up to now where you get the form and you know you like, I'm South African, right? And then they go in like, at work because I think they needed for their stats. Right. So it's Indian, Coloured, White, Black, or African. And then you like well I have to take Indian because my surname is Nanabhay right, but I don't want to tick it's so. It's hard, it's, but I definitely think, I mean, I definitely think nowadays it's changing. People see you more for the person you are. They see you for, cool this as my friend, Shaakira and there she is. You know, that's her religion. And that's who you are.
Zachary: I think the world is slowly growing. Well, I mean, I think obviously you have. You have grown up mixed race. Do you have any advice for mixed race kids, teens, even myself, who are growing up in this day and age, and even though it's vastly easier than before, there are people who feel challenged by society’s need to categorize people or put you in Indian, Malay, White. Do you have any advice on how to navigate through that?
Shaakira: I think the important thing in life and I think you know, is to understand your worth as a human being. You know, to understand what your worth is as an individual, you know. And acceptance, I think acceptance is so so key. You know, acceptance of yourself because as soon as you don't accept and you're unhappy and you know you're like, oh, my, my hair's too curly or, you know, I'm too fair. I'm too dark. I'm too this. I think. I think that leads to a lot of resentment and unhappiness within ourselves, you know. So I think that confidence and that ability to say, you know what, this is who I am you. Like it or you don't like it, and if you I don't like it, so be it you know, I think that would be my advice. I mean, I'm not saying that's easy to do that I'm not saying it's easy. But I think working on yourself and being Ok with who you are is the key.
Zachary: That's great advice. Thank you.
Do you have anything else you'd like to add? To tell the listeners
Shaakira: No, I just, you know, when your sent me this podcast, I was actually, I didn't have a chance to listen and I listened to it on the way to work one morning. I just thought it was so nice because I think. It's a topic that is not always navigated. So I think it was great and I was so happy that your mom phoned and said you were keen for me to do a little bit of an interview with you, so I hope it was helpful.
Zachary: Yes, thank you so much.
Shaakira: You know, absolutely.
Zachary: I mean, it's been a pleasure to have you on this podcast. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to come and sit with me. I hope this was worthwhile to talk to me about all of this.
Shaakira: Yeah, absolutely, you know, it's like I said, you know, I like you so much and I've trained you and look after your mum and so yeah, and I kind of know what you're going through a little bit, maybe not exactly.
Zachary: Well, I mean, I find a lot of similarities. when when you were telling the stories
Shaakira: So yeah, so you know it's, I'm just so happy that I could help and I hope it will be beneficial for your listeners.
Zachary: It was, thank you so much and thank you so much to everybody for sticking around until the end. Please share it with your friends, you can drop a rating on Spotify. Please give me five stars. That'd be great. Yeah, see you around. Thank you!
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